Witch

[Kaijin]

RESURRECTION!

You know... While other people have been pondering about if witches can do standing handjobs, been mesmerized by thier eternal cuteness or even berating them for being just another loli entry in MGE...
...I couldn't help but wondering... How do they work exactly? How do they even reproduce?

A witch gets her nature as a monster, her status as a witch and an eternally adorable appearance by making a "contract" with a Baphomet... Meaning that witches can't give birth witches since well... a witch need a baphomet in order to be a witch.
And despite being formerly a human, her newly acquired nature as a monster makes impossible for her to give birth to a human baby...

How do they work? What would a lovechild of a witch and her beloved onii-chan be? Or... Would they even be able to reproduce? The scenario where the Baphomet made such an excellent job at granting them eternal youth and beauty to the point that made their reproductive system not ready to bear children (and thus making them eternally sterile) is quite plausible aswell... (Since that would make all witches' onii-chans/familiars/slaves/husbands to go directly to the baphomet in order to start a family... which at the same time would help increase the baphomet population drastically).

...The harder I try to get a clear answer the more confused I get... x_x

[dragonstryke58]

The profile mentions that Witches gained their monster status through contact with a Baphomet "originally." In that case, it is possible, though that was only method in the beginning, there are other methods currently. One such way could feasibly be the birth or offspring since children will be female in the species of the mother. Another such way could be a powerful, fellow witch converting a human woman with the same promise. Also, let's not forget that it seems the Lilim has the ability to change human women into various types of MGs as well.

[Kaijin]

Hmmm... Rrrrrrright...^^U

But let's not forget that the species is an artificial birth (aka born non conventional birth (such as this cases conversion)) species and human in almost every possible aspect (but for appearance/aging, power and partially diet) , so as of now it's officially unlikely that a witch is able to give birth to another witch (that could change in the future with yet another hypothetical retcon, but like PK has told us like 99.999 times, Kenkou has never given a damn about coherence nor common sense on his setting... so I see that even more unlikely).

However I can kinda imagine a witch bringing her originally human baby daughter (since they're technically as human as their incubi husbands) to a baphomet in order for her to perform a ritual on the baby and turn her into a witch (kinda like mohels do with Jewish baby boys... but without scalpels).

.P.S.:

Also, let's not forget that it seems the Lilim has the ability to change human women into various types of MGs as well.

Yes, while Lili-sue has the power to change people into monsters at random on a whim (she's like a warped version of an Echidna on a sense) would it actually be productive for her to turn women into witches?

Like happens with some other monsters such as the Apophis (who can alter the Demon Lady's creations at will, thing that can and must be seen as a sign of defiance to the Demon Lady herself) or the followers of the Fallen Goddess (who are an enemy faction), the followers of the cult of Baphomet could potentially become a threat to the Demon Lady's ideals.
It has never been officially clear if members of the cult of baphomet worship the Demon Lady aswell or if they simply follow her for the sake of their goals (if her plans succeeds they'll get more onii-chans)... So it's unknown if they will rebel against her if their numbers (and thus their power) increase drastically in order to fulfill their biggest dream: A world where every woman fully understands and experiences first hand the beauty that only little girls are able to possess.

Also there's the factor that followers of the cult of Baphomet see everything that is not childish looking (or in the worst case scenario flat chested) as revolting and a potential threat to their ideal sense of beauty... I don't picture Lilim to be that dense to just turn women into monsters that will not hesitate at all to just attempt to summon a giant lightning bolt at them only seconds after been "born".

[youtube]3CCMlHjtkjM[/youtube]
Remeber children of the Demon Lady, this CAN and WILL happen to you if you "give birth" to a witch <3

[dragonstryke58]

It has never been officially clear if members of the cult of baphomet worship the Demon Lady aswell or if they simply follow her for the sake of their goals (if her plans succeeds they'll get more onii-chans)... So it's unknown if they will rebel against her if their numbers (and thus their power) increase drastically in order to fulfill their biggest dream: A world where every woman fully understands and experiences first hand the beauty that only little girls are able to possess.

Also there's the factor that followers of the cult of Baphomet see everything that is not childish looking (or in the worst case scenario flat chested) as revolting and a potential threat to their ideal sense of beauty... I don't picture Lilim to be that dense to just turn women into monsters that will not hesitate at all to just attempt to summon a giant lightning bolt at them only seconds after been "born".

In the Canon Settings, the information for the Sabbath says thus:

A religious group lead by Baphomet who is one of the main leaders of the Demon Lord's army.

As for the part about seeing anything not loli-like being a threat, because they are a part of the Demon Lord's Army (the spellcasting unit), they probably come into contact with others that are not loli without any problems. They probably see that loli-ism is their ideal, but aren't threatened by the existence of busty or more mature females. It's kind of like how you can view a car as cool, but your dream car as even cooler.

[Kaijin]

A religious group lead by Baphomet who is one of the main leaders of the Demon Lord's army.

How convenient about for the Demon Lady that the leaders of Sabath are creatures with plenty of brawl but no brains...<3
Well it looks like KC used his common sense once for a change, how to avoid a loli alliance rebellion? By turning their faction leaders into horny morons.

[dragonstryke58]

By turning their faction leaders into horny morons.

Bapho-chan: Well what's wrong with having horns...? Wait did he just call me an idiot?

Dragonstryke: Nope, he said moron, idiot...

Bapho-chan: Ah ok...well I'll forgive him.

Dragonstryke:

[Kaijin]

Well... While I wasn't able to learn how witches reproduce (and I'm affraid that I will NEVER be able to do so) I managed to learn an important (yet pointless) lesson:

Witches, as members of the Sabbath cult, are bound to follow the Demon Lady's commands and put their lives on the line for her despite not having pledged actual allegiance to her at all (technically speaking a witch only should show loyalty to the one who granted her ultimate wish of power, beauty and youth (baphomet), and to her own husband/ onii-chan) due to... Sabbath's leaders natural short temper and stupidity.

Thing that makes me wonder... How would Sabbath's cult be if it was ruled by a witch (or covenant of witches) instead of goat demons that only have two main trains of thought: "You're male, I'm gonna lay you" and "You're aesthetically revolting, I'm gonna slay you" ?

So I should be thanking you for that... I guess...^^U

[dragonstryke58]

Well... While I wasn't able to learn how witches reproduce

We probably won't know until it's expressly written, but I did throw out a few plausible ways. Just because a witch is a loli doesn't mean she can't give birth (it just might be dangerous for her to do so).

"You're aesthetically revolting, I'm gonna slay you" ?

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that either the baphomet of the witch thinks this way. Sure, they have an aesthetic ideal, but it does not mean that anything other than their ideal look is something that must be purged.

[Kaijin]

Just because a witch is a loli doesn't mean she can't give birth (it just might be dangerous for her to do so).

It's not the fact that she's a loli the one responsible of their possible sterility. Goblins are lolis and are able to bear children, Dwarves are lolis (almost toddler level) and are able to give birth...
...The thing that (supposedly) prevents witches from bearing witches is the fact that their race is an artificial one, and thus (so far) only born via conversion.

It doesn't matter the plausability of your theories if you keep overlooking the most basic parts of their nature.

[dragonstryke58]

Just because they were artificially created doesn't mean that there is no way for them to reproduce. Would that mean that a women who was turned into a werewolf would not be able to have a werewolf child? What about a woman who was turned into a vampire or a succubus? In these cases, the women can be artificially changed into an MG, but it's still acceptable that they produce offspring.

If you can say that Witches are able to at least be impregnated and give birth, would it not be plausible that the "corruption" of the mother be passed on to her child. So a new born baby female to a Witch would inherit the same power as her mother.

[Kaijin]

Would that mean that a women who was turned into a werewolf would not be able to have a werewolf child? What about a woman who was turned into a vampire or a succubus?

Those cases are absolutely different. Those are not case of conversion, those are cases of transformation... They do get warped at any possible level, their bodies transformed, their genetic map absolutely changed and thus leaving their human nature behind.

While witches on the other hand get warped by demonic energy in several aspects such as magical power increases, appearance and resiliance to the grasp of time... But as of now it's unknown if they've been changed in a genetic level like all the cases mentioned above.

Can I picture a freshly turned werewolf bearing werepups? Yes, her genetic map was rewritten to become that of a werewolf.
Can I picture a witch bearing a witch? For the time being, no. Like happens with other members of the Majin family (like the kitsune-tsuki), witches are pretty much humans with an alien and unnatural amount of demonic energy instilled in their bodies... And as far as I can tell a human CAN'T give birth to a monster.

Let's assume that witches are able to bear children, while it could be plausible for a witch mother to pass part of her "magic" to her offspring and even the female gender (due to her nature as artificial monster / infected human), that child wouldn't be a witch... just an incredibly gifted human child.

Until further retcon it seems pretty evident that witches aren't born, but made instead. You can't have a witch without a baphomet (or a moody Lili).

[dragonstryke58]

Those cases are absolutely different. Those are not case of conversion, those are cases of transformation... They do get warped at any possible level, their bodies transformed, their genetic map absolutely changed and thus leaving their human nature behind.

While witches on the other hand get warped by demonic energy in several aspects such as magical power increases, appearance and resiliance to the grasp of time... But as of now it's unknown if they've been changed in a genetic level like all the cases mentioned above.

Possibly in the case of the werewolf, but in the case of a succubus, I believe it's the same. The "parent" succubus will warp a "victim" with tremendous amounts of demonic energy, changing the victim to a succubus like herself.

Can I picture a witch bearing a witch? For the time being, no. Like happens with other members of the Majin family (like the kitsune-tsuki), witches are pretty much humans with an alien and unnatural amount of demonic energy instilled in their bodies... And as far as I can tell a human CAN'T give birth to a monster.

Let's assume that witches are able to bear children, while it could be plausible for a witch mother to pass part of her "magic" to her offspring and even the female gender (due to her nature as artificial monster / infected human), that child wouldn't be a witch... just an incredibly gifted human child.

You are assuming that the witch is still a human with extraordinary powers granted through a contract though. Unfortunately, that is not the case in that they are regarded as monsters. The text does say that "originally they were human" which notes that now they are monsters (and the reason why they are given an entry into the MGE).

Because they are monsters, they follow the rule that MGs give birth to children of the mother's species. This is the case with all MGs including those of the Majin family such as Kitsune-Tsukis. Unless there's a change to that rule that says the Majin Family is an exception to the "MGs give birth to only MGs" rule, it is evident that if a witch (or some other artificial monster/"infected-former-human-now-MG") does give birth, it will not be an incredibly gifted human but another of the mother's race instead.

[Kaijin]

but in the case of a succubus, I believe it's the same. The "parent" succubus will warp a "victim" with tremendous amounts of demonic energy, changing the victim to a succubus like herself.

Thus altering her genetic map, and triggering a transformation process instead of a conversion one. While it may seem identical, it's vastly different.

You are assuming that the witch is still a human with extraordinary powers granted through a contract though. Unfortunately, that is not the case in that they are regarded as monsters. The text does say that "originally they were human" which notes that now they are monsters (and the reason why they are given an entry into the MGE).

I always considered that part to be incredibly iffy due to the settings author's utter inability to explain how the Majin family works... Members of the Majin family are originally humans that have been infused with huge amounts of demonic energy in an unorthodox way, but there is still no solid evidence that they have been modified from scratch (a kitsune-tsuki may eventually become a kitsune, but it's rather the outcome of the merging between the two souls residing in her).

They're mostly considered monsters due to their changes of disposition, diet and appearance... But other than that, there is no solid proof that they completely left their humanity behind.

So no, I can't picture a majin giving birth to another majin... Since I can't picture a monster giving birth to human. I can't imagine a kitsune-tsuki giving birth another kitsune-tsuki since it would basically be a possessed woman giving birth to... an oddly possessed baby, in the same manner that a witch would not bear another witch.

Until Kenkou decides to enlighten his cherished and limited JAPANESE MALE fanbase (and by extension the rest of us) about how Majin family members work, it's safe to assume that said monsters can't be bred in a natural and traditional manner.

[dragonstryke58]

Thus altering her genetic map, and triggering a transformation process instead of a conversion one. While it may seem identical, it's vastly different.

There is no proof that her genetic make up is altered. It does not tell us that such an event happens. If you are going to argue that her growing horns and wings are proof of genetic change, then I can also say that resistance to aging can be the same and a witch therefore is a monster that underwent the same genetic alteration process.

I always considered that part to be incredibly iffy due to the settings author's utter inability to explain how the Majin family works... Members of the Majin family are originally humans that have been infused with huge amounts of demonic energy in an unorthodox way, but there is still no solid evidence that they have been modified from scratch (a kitsune-tsuki may eventually become a kitsune, but it's rather the outcome of the merging between the two souls residing in her).

They're mostly considered monsters due to their changes of disposition, diet and appearance... But other than that, there is no solid proof that they completely left their humanity behind.

So no, I can't picture a majin giving birth to another majin... Since I can't picture a monster giving birth to human. I can't imagine a kitsune-tsuki giving birth another kitsune-tsuki since it would basically be a possessed woman giving birth to... an oddly possessed baby, in the same manner that a witch would not bear another witch.

In that case, it is your own personal preference and not a lack of an explanation. Kenkou has explained it, yet the explanation is ignored based on the fact that it doesn't fit with your personal views (i.e. you don't think that the Majin Family consists of "proper" MGs). In other words, the current explanation is not accepted because you don't like it.

Just the fact that he has given us the rule that "MGs will always give birth to MGs of the same species" is enough to explain if all the MGs in the MGE reproduce what kind of children they will have. Unless he comes out with a exception to the rule, this should always be the case.

On a side note, ignoring rules and settings material for your own convenience is not a bad thing in my opinion. After all, I choose to ignore the corruption aspect of the MGE. I do though understand that this is my personal preference and something outside the canon material.

[Kaijin]

"MGs will always give birth to MGs of the same species"

Yeah... Then do answer me this: How a monster that is actually possessed woman can give birth to a member of the same species? Where does come the spirit possessing the baby from? Or how can a monster that is meant to be a living boulder give birth to another boulder? Or how a monster that is the combination of a flame with demonic energy in the air can give birth to another flame? Or how a lamp can give birth to another lamp?

Saying that is absolutely the same that saying that birds fly because they have wings. According to that line a penguin can fly just because it has wings.

There... is... no... absoulte... rule.... Every rule has always an exception.

Kenkou has explained it,

Where exactly? He did not only explained how Maijin family members work (nor almost any of the artificial birth monsters for that matter), but also the only explanation given about reproduction can be translated as "It's that way because of yes".

But then again you are in way higher place in this community's hierarchy that I'll ever be, so congratulations you're not only officiallyright but I'm also an ignorant, disrespectful, intransigent and a fantasist.
This should serve me as both a lesson and a reminder about posting in this subforum (specially near of your presence), and also I'll be sure to never forget the mistake I made at trying to post something minimally sensible and intelligent.

[PAZ]

Spoiler: show

Don't bring your personal emotion into this forum, you have your own problem and so is the other.

And don't bother replying to me because I won't read them.

Man's worst enemy is themselves.

Edit: Post Spoilered and locked by Pierce


Note: Peace, I understand how you feel, however backseat modding and baiting is not an acceptable form of post.

[Drazzimyr]

I love how you guys are fighting over how a species in a FANTASY setting is supposed to breed. Aspects of fantasy settings rarely get a lot of explanation for how they work unless the author provides explicit detail. For what we know, Kenkou may do a revamp of the witch's profile in the future, it's merely a matter of being patient. Or you know, you could make a headcanon explanation and call it a day.

Though, I may not be in the position to say this, but Kaijin, you shouldn't try to victimize yourself and make Dragonstryke look bad, you're smarter than that and you should know better. Dragonstryke, I agree with Kaijin in that your responses weren't clear enough, it doesn't hurt to do research on certain things.

Ultimately, you guys were arguing over how a loli gets pregnant....

[dragonstryke58]

Yeah... Then do answer me this: How a monster that is actually possessed woman can give birth to a member of the same species? Where does come the spirit possessing the baby from? Or how can a monster that is meant to be a living boulder give birth to another boulder? Or how a monster that is the combination of a flame with demonic energy in the air can give birth to another flame? Or how a lamp can give birth to another lamp?

This would be a question for Kenkou since he makes the setting material, not I. I can only go by what information he has already presented us with. After that I can only speculate.

Saying that is absolutely the same that saying that birds fly because they have wings. According to that line a penguin can fly just because it has wings.

There... is... no... absoulte... rule.... Every rule has always an exception.

In this case, it is not a correct analogy because we know that not all birds can nor could fly and we have evidence to back up that claim. Kenkou has not given us an exception to his rule therefore we do not know which MGs are exceptions, if there are any. We have no evidence that an MG can give birth to a human, in any of the profiles or the setting material. In this case, we can say that all MGs (known as present) will produce another MG not a human.

Where exactly?

In the Classic Canon under the section about the fundamentals of monsters:

By copulating with human men, the monsters make children. It is said that children born in this way are fundamentally all monsters.

There are no exceptions to this rule given either in the settings material nor any of the profiles. Unless Kenkou gives us an exception that does say the Majin Family gives birth to humans (incredibly gifted or not), the stated rule is for all MGs.

Dragonstryke, I agree with Kaijin in that your responses weren't clear enough, it doesn't hurt to do research on certain things.

The above answers should be clear and researched. The rule that Kenkou gave us comes straight from the Classic Canon. As I have said earlier, until he gives us an exception to the rule, in his world, there are no exceptions. This, however, differs once we put our own spin on it through personal bias. If I were to say that a Kitsunetsuki gives birth to a human because it doesn't make sense to me, it is no longer Kenkou's spin on the MGE world, but my own.